Episode 27
How to Protect Your Frameworks So They Can’t Be Copied (With IP Attorney Anu Kinhal)
Can someone copy your framework, name, or content — and get away with it?
In this episode, I sit down with Anu Kinhal, an intellectual property attorney who helped me register my own trademark, to break down the essentials of copyright and trademark for coaches, consultants, and creators.
Whether you’re just starting to define your methodology or already using a signature brand, this conversation will help you understand what’s worth protecting, when to act, and how IP fits into your trust-building strategy.
You’ll learn:
• What copyright protects vs. what trademark covers
• When you should (and shouldn’t) file for registration
• How to secure frameworks, assessments, and digital tools
• Why IP protection signals authority and trustworthiness
• The risks of skipping it — from lost funding to copycats
💬 After listening:
What’s one piece of your IP you’ll protect this year?
Message me or share your takeaways in the comments!
Takeaways:
- Understanding copyright protects your original works, while trademarks safeguard your brand identity and names.
- As a content creator, you should consider copyrighting your work once you invest time and resources into it.
- It's crucial to put a TM or R symbol next to your brand to indicate your ownership and deter potential infringers.
- The distinction between copyright and trademark can save you from legal headaches down the line, so learn it well.
- If you're building a brand or framework, take steps early to secure your intellectual property rights.
- Hiring an IP attorney can simplify the registration process and help ensure you're not leaving money on the table.
Links referenced in this episode:
Companies mentioned in this episode:
- IBM
- Kinhal Law
Transcript
Welcome to another episode of the Trust Leader podcast.
Speaker A:I am thrilled to have with me today Anu Kinhal.
Speaker A:He is coming to us from sunny New York City in his skyscraper office.
Speaker A:It's a.
Speaker A:Looks like it's a beautiful view there.
Speaker A:And I'm thrilled that you're here with me because you actually just helped me trademark lead with trust and the phrase trust leader.
Speaker A:And there was so much I learned and I thought it would be helpful to, for everyone else to learn from you as well.
Speaker A:Welcome to the show.
Speaker B:Thank you for having me, Hannah.
Speaker B:Really, really appreciate it and just excited to have a conversation with you today.
Speaker A:Awesome.
Speaker A: your own firm since February: Speaker A:Can you give us a little bit of background as to who you are and what makes being an IP attorney so exciting?
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:I'll give first of a bit about my background.
Speaker B:My background was in bioengineering, so I had a technical background in college.
Speaker B:And I was looking to obviously figure out like, like everyone does, what's the next step, what do I do with it?
Speaker B:And one of the options was, you know, research or academia.
Speaker B:That wasn't very interesting to me.
Speaker B:I wanted to do something a little bit more practical, a little bit more, you know, business oriented.
Speaker B:So I had a, you know, a chance to talk to various people, including law professors, on what the next step would be.
Speaker B:You know, a few of them recommended, well, what about intellectual property law?
Speaker B:You already have like, you know, the technical background.
Speaker B:This might be a natural next step for you.
Speaker B:And the more I considered, the more intriguing it became.
Speaker B:So I took that their advice seriously, applied to law school and, you know, in my second year of law school, I took a lot of like, intellectual property courses and patent law courses and just really, really enjoyed them.
Speaker B:And when I was in law school, I worked with various startups and we helped them with all aspects of their intellectual property to make sure their company was able to run off the ground with, with the limited resources a startup has, you want to be able to make sure they get all the help they need.
Speaker B:And for them, you know, they got great advice from us.
Speaker B:For us, we got great experience, you know, advising them.
Speaker B:And so I took that experience and then I got my first job at IBM after law school working in house in their patent group.
Speaker B:So I worked very closely with their inventors for a long time.
Speaker B:You know drafting and prosecuting patents and really learning a lot about inventions, what the inventive process looks like.
Speaker B:And that was interesting for, for some time.
Speaker B:However, I felt towards the end of my time there, about seven years in, that I wasn't doing more with ip, I felt like I was kind of boxed into one area.
Speaker B:So that was one of the turning points in my career when I decided, you know, I think for me the next logical step is start my own firm and be able to help companies of all sizes with all aspects of their intellectual property.
Speaker B:So that, that's exactly what I did.
Speaker B:That's how Kinhal Law was born.
Speaker B:How we help startups, small businesses across all industries protect not just the patents, but also help them with their brand identity and make sure that anything, any creative works that they create stays theirs.
Speaker B:Because one thing I've learned is whenever you come up with something that makes money and it looks good, other people want it too.
Speaker B:So you want to make sure that all of the hard work that you created stays your hard work.
Speaker B:So that's really what we help people.
Speaker A:Do every day and that's what we're going to dive into today.
Speaker A:How are you going to protect your hard work?
Speaker A:And I'm very excited that you multiple times mentioned the word help, because that was my experience that I really had with you.
Speaker A:I really felt like you were helping me along the way and you've been such a great help.
Speaker A:So let's dive into it.
Speaker A:One of the first questions that probably is seems really silly, but honestly I had to figure it out.
Speaker A:So if I had to figure it out, probably a lot of other people are asking the same question is what's the difference between copyright and trademark?
Speaker B:Yeah, that's not a silly question at all.
Speaker B:That's a great question actually.
Speaker B:So the difference between copyright and trademarks is this.
Speaker B:The simplest answer is there are two different types of IP and they serve two different purposes.
Speaker B:So copyrights protect, you know, original works of authorship.
Speaker B:So if you, you know, anything that you can, any idea that you have that you fix in a tangible medium of expression, that's the legal definition, is protectable by copyright.
Speaker B:So if you're an author and you write a book, if you're, you know, like an artist and you create any kind of work, musician creating music, things, things along those lines, any kind of creative work that you produce and express, that's protected by copyright.
Speaker B:What trademarks protect is your brand identity.
Speaker B:So they serve as a source identifier in the market.
Speaker B:So if you use a name to sell a certain good or service and people associate that name with that good or service and the quality that it produces, then trademark rights protect that.
Speaker B:So then someone else can't come in and start opening up shop with the same name and then confuse others thinking, okay, this Southern name is similar to the name that I know and love.
Speaker B:It must be the same thing.
Speaker B:Maybe the quality is the same too.
Speaker B:So to prevent consumers from being deceived or misled in the marketplace, trademark rights protect that brand identity and everything it really stands for.
Speaker A:Yeah, and we're going to go into the nuances a bit later in the interview, but to get us just covered on the base level, in your experience, why should business owners and content creators care about these distinctions?
Speaker B:It's a good, it's a good question.
Speaker B:I think there's certain content creators and that should care and then some that maybe is not as important.
Speaker B:So I'll start with the ones that maybe they shouldn't care, which is a little bit counterintuitive.
Speaker B:One, you know, if you're creating works just kind of as a hobbyist, this is just something that's fun and you're really testing out how well a certain method works or how well a name resonates or things of that nature and you're not like emotionally tied to it, financially invested in, in it, then you know, it might not make sense to get any IP protection around your, your name with the trademark or, or even worry too much about like copyright issues because you're still in that experimental phase.
Speaker B:You haven't really tied anything down and you haven't really created a, an environment where having, you know, assets like intellectual property makes sense for you yet.
Speaker B:But if you are spending a considerable amount of time, you know, building up your brand identity, making sure people know your name, spending money on marketing, then you know, it makes sense to get a trademark and protect that name because then you don't want someone else coming in and undercutting you because one, you know, it's, it's just, it's just not fair if they see that you're succeeding and then they come swoop in, which happens so often.
Speaker B:But also the other scenario where you know, it's more, more innocent where someone else independently comes up with a similar idea and they're like, it, maybe this could work for me too.
Speaker B:And it might not be exactly what, what you created brand wise, but it could be so similar and it really could be working for them and it resonates with them.
Speaker B:And then they, you know, know, kind of beat you to the Punch and file first.
Speaker B:For those people that are more heavily invested, it makes a lot of sense to get to at least consider intellectual property protection for, for their business.
Speaker A:Yeah, that makes sense.
Speaker A:Now, when I teach people endless customers or I go into businesses and help them build more trust with the trust leader framework, one of the things that I always teach them is to actively demonstrate their expertise by creating intellectual property.
Speaker A:Right, in form of frameworks, methodologies.
Speaker A:Maybe they have a different way of selling even or manufacturing process or whatever it is.
Speaker A:But I'm not necessarily talking about copywriting a manufacturing process right now.
Speaker A:But I'm talking about creating a piece of content or a frame like a digital framework or an assessment tool that helps people understand a certain problem, whatever it is.
Speaker A:And you mentioned before, as long as I can express that which a framework is, or if I publish a big page explaining certain things and I actually map out a process, then that could be copyrighted.
Speaker A:Now I see a lot of people just put a little C on there or even with names and a little tm.
Speaker A:Is that enough?
Speaker A:Or what do I actually need to do in order to protect, let's say with copyright first?
Speaker A:What do I need to do to actually make sure it's protected?
Speaker B:Yeah, great question.
Speaker B:To really protect a work by copyright, the one thing to know is whenever you create the work, the minute you've created it, it's automatically protected by copyright.
Speaker B:So that you don't need to separately register with the copyright office or anything like that.
Speaker B:The moment you create a work is the moment that it's protected by copyright.
Speaker B:But what people do when they put the C in a circle at the bottom of page and say it's owned by this company this year, things along those lines, that's called notice.
Speaker B:That provides notice to other people that hey, this is my work, I own it.
Speaker B:There are benefits to registering the work with the copyright office.
Speaker B:It's not always required, but it is recommended because you get, whenever someone infringes on that work, you have the copyright registration to assert against them and you can actually file suit to stop them.
Speaker B:And if you file your copyright registration, you know, before they, you know, any acts of infringement occur, then you can go after people for statutory damages rather than, you know, actual damages.
Speaker B:So for example, if you write a blog post or something of that nature and someone takes it, infringes it, and you know, you register it before they infringe then, and they use it in a way that's not subject to fair use or anything like that, then you can go after and really assert statutory damages, which gives you a lot of leverage to get them to stop.
Speaker B:So it's definitely a strong tool that's available to copyright holders.
Speaker A:Now, of course, you wouldn't register every single blog article, but maybe specific, very big pieces of work that you're distinguishing yourself from your competition or in the market itself.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:The blog was just sort of an example.
Speaker B:Like, obviously someone uses it, whatever, it's, it's, you know, as long as it's used fairly, that, that's one thing.
Speaker B:But if it's like a work that you're commercially trying to, you know, utilize, then that's something that you definitely want to have protected by copyright.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Like, if you publish a book, you want to make sure, make sure you have the, you know, that book registered with the copyright office to make sure others don't, you know, copy the book and use it or certain aspects of it and think of things, things like that.
Speaker A:But when you publish a book, it's automatically registered with the, if you properly publish it.
Speaker B:Well, if you publish it with a, with a publisher, it's not automatically registered with the copyright office.
Speaker B:That's, that's a separate step.
Speaker B:So oftentimes, like in a publishing agreement, the publisher will say, we will register the copyright for you.
Speaker B:So when you give them the manuscript and they finish it, you know, finish editing, then they'll submit the final version and then protect that by copyright.
Speaker B:So that by the time the book is out for publishing or, you know, out in the market, then it's already, you know, has that copyright registration.
Speaker B:But the mere publication of it doesn't automatically register it.
Speaker B:You still have to go to the copyright office, you give them your book, tell them, you know, this is what I want to protect.
Speaker B:I wrote this, I'm the author.
Speaker B:And give them, you know, identifying information and then they'll inspect the book, the circumstances around it, and then they'll give you the registration.
Speaker A:Because that's a lot of times I hear that, oh, when you publish a book, it's automatically copyrighted because you're recognized as the author.
Speaker A:And when you self publish a book, is that different?
Speaker B:Well, it's the same thing.
Speaker B:So the one distinction I want to make is copyright protection automatically attaches the moment you create the work.
Speaker B:So then you already own it.
Speaker B:But the registration is not automatic, that you still have to go to the copyright office and submit the application.
Speaker A:Yeah, as you just explained, it helps with suing them if, yeah.
Speaker B:And it also gives you a leg to stand on.
Speaker B:You can, if you send like A demand, like a cease and desist letter to somebody saying, you're infringing my copyright.
Speaker B:You know, it's one thing if you feel like, oh yeah, don't copy me.
Speaker B:You know, don't, I did it first.
Speaker B:Like it's, if you're saying things like that in the abstract, it's not that strong.
Speaker B:But if you say, I am the owner of this, you know, copyright registered with the United States Copyright Office, that's a lot stronger inside.
Speaker B:It's quite, it's tangible proof that you own it and it's noticed to the other person that you're, they're actively trampling on your rights.
Speaker A:Yep, that makes sense staying on that for a second, but flipping that on its head.
Speaker A:A lot of people are putting on the symbol on the trademark.
Speaker A:Do you feel like that is a deterrent enough a lot of times or what would you be your recommendation that you.
Speaker A:It's actually worth filing?
Speaker A:So we talked about this from the copyright perspective, but from the trademark perspective, what's the difference there?
Speaker B:Yeah, that's a great question.
Speaker B:You know, using the tm, when you're using any kind of like, you know, product name, brand name, you know, tagline, what have you, it's always a good idea.
Speaker B:Trademark.
Speaker B:You know, as we discussed before, trademarks and copyrights operate a little bit differently, right?
Speaker B:So trademarks work as a source identifier for goods or services.
Speaker B:So it ties a name to a product or service in the, in the consumer's mind.
Speaker B:So when you use a tm, you're, you're basically telling people, hey, this is a trademark name.
Speaker B:You know, this is the, the brand, this is that that's selling X, Y and Z.
Speaker B:Anytime you, you're trying to create that brand identity, I always tell people before you, if you're not registering the name, at least put people out on notice and put the TM next to the brand name.
Speaker B:I think even when, when we kind of talked, I think I, you know, explained the difference between the TM and the R symbol.
Speaker B:So the TM is, denotes like common law rights that you haven't registered the trademark with the trademark with the uspto, but you intend to use that, that name in commerce, want to sell a good or service with it.
Speaker B:When you register the trademark with the trademark, you know, with the uspto, then you, you get to use the R with the circle.
Speaker B:So that, that's the, the perk of registering.
Speaker B:And the real difference between the two is common law rights versus federal rights.
Speaker B:So with the tm, you get common Law rights, which means if you're using the name first before anyone else's, that that protection extends to you directly where you're using it.
Speaker B:So like in your city, in your neighborhood, in your geographic region that you're actively operating and marketing, but it doesn't apply nationwide.
Speaker B:When you register that same trademark, you automatically get nationwide protection to the extent that you were first everywhere.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:So that, that's stronger protection, you know, and it also allows you to expand your business.
Speaker B:Because some people I like, I've talked to say, like, I only want to operate in New York.
Speaker B:I'm like, that's cool.
Speaker B:Well, if you have a product that you want to sell, you know, online, or if you want to, you know, open up in California, then you need that, that trademark.
Speaker B:Because if someone else is using the same name you're using in New York, in California, then you're gonna have a tough time expanding into California without having to pay them a license or really getting into a legal battle.
Speaker A:Is there a big misconception around?
Speaker A:Because you mentioned multiple times local versus federal, and I'm in Italy, but I mainly operate in the United States with my business.
Speaker A:Now some other people might have similar scenarios where they may be even the other way around.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:They're a US Citizen working out of New York, but they work with companies in Europe.
Speaker A:Let's say, does it make sense to register in every single country that you're in, or do you recommend usually to operate or to, to cop a trademark in the main region that you're operating in?
Speaker B:Yeah, so I, I always recommend getting, registering your trademark wherever you are currently engaging in commerce.
Speaker B:So if that includes multiple countries, then you should regulate, look into filing in multiple countries.
Speaker B:But the main thing with trademark rights is at least in the United States, you have, you gain those rights by engaging, you know, in commerce.
Speaker B:So if you're not really selling a name or really not selling any goods or services under a brand name, then you don't really have trademark rights.
Speaker B:Even if you just, you know, register, you have to have, you know, like a bonafide intent to use it if you're not using it already.
Speaker B:But if you have no intent to use and you're just like, I'm going to park on the name and kind of claim it, that that's not, not allowed.
Speaker A:Now, if I'm already in the process of developing a framework, or maybe I've just developed a framework or a methodology or a maturity model or some, some sort of IP that really makes me different from my competition.
Speaker A:When is a Good time to think about either copywriting or trademarking that thing that I did.
Speaker B:Okay, so the.
Speaker B:When you're creating like a methodology, like if you have like a coaching framework that use copyright really wouldn't be the way to protect the methodology.
Speaker B:It protects just the expression of that idea, not the idea itself.
Speaker B:So if you express it in this in a particular way, then, you know, copyright prevents your competitors from literally just copy pasting what you have.
Speaker B:So they have to like, innovate around the messaging you've created and the presentation that you've created to be able to do the same thing.
Speaker B:But what it doesn't prevent them from doing is still being able to generally offer steps A, B and C as, as part of the method.
Speaker B:They just have to show it as kind of being their own thing.
Speaker A:I read somewhere, maybe that's wrong, but I read somewhere.
Speaker A:As long as you change 20%, is that, is that, does my memory serve me right?
Speaker B:I'm not sure about like, like a percentage threshold, but usually when you look at, like, infringement, you look at, you know, substantial similarity.
Speaker B:So you really have to look at, you know, the facts and circumstances surrounding the two, like works basically.
Speaker B:And that's really, you know, a subjective decision that you might get different results with different groups of people.
Speaker B:So it's a very subjective question even to get to that 20%.
Speaker B:There's no real framework to get there.
Speaker B:It's just like, does it look kind of the same?
Speaker B:The nod sometimes it's like, does it feel different?
Speaker B:That's also something people can like, you know.
Speaker A:So in one minute, can you walk us quickly through what would be the process if I would call you tomorrow and I want to file a copyright registration and a trademark registration, or what would that look like?
Speaker A:Like, how complicated is that process really?
Speaker B:Okay, so the copyright registration process is relatively more straightforward, at least, at least from our experience.
Speaker B:When you're an author and you're not creating like a work for hire, for example, you're the author, you created the work, and you want to get a register.
Speaker B:That, that's a fairly straightforward process.
Speaker B:We'll have to look at, you know, what, what the text.
Speaker B:You know, if you're protecting a book, we look at the text.
Speaker B:Is there any artwork that you produced?
Speaker B:We want to, you know, is there any, like, video or anything like that?
Speaker B:That's something we kind of determined and we can easily do that through our intake process.
Speaker B:And then we'll, we'll take the, you know, a look at the work itself and then we'll submit that to the copyright office, that's like, fairly straightforward.
Speaker B:So that, that doesn't take as much time on our end for trademark registrations.
Speaker B:It's a little bit more involved because, one, you need to make sure that the name is available to use.
Speaker B:That's, that's the biggest thing.
Speaker B:So we want to do a clearance search, which includes looking through the entire USPTO database, doing a full online search, looking at, you know, state trademark registries and things of that nature, to make sure that no one else is using that name because you don't want issues.
Speaker B:If you, you know, if a name pops up, if it's too similar, and even if it's similar but, you know, you can get the registration, then can you actually use it?
Speaker B:Those become very tricky questions, and that requires professional judgment to make the recommendation.
Speaker B:It takes a certain risk assessment on your part to go with it.
Speaker B:But once we do the clearance search, then we'll look at your business.
Speaker B:We'll get an idea of what you're doing, get an idea of what you really want the brand to be and what you're trying to protect, and then we'll come up with recommendations on how best to protect it through the right trademark descriptions, and then we'll prepare the application based on that.
Speaker A:Yeah, from my point of view as the client, it actually felt relatively super straightforward and easy.
Speaker A:I mean, you did the thinking, you did all the recommendation, but for me, I just needed to fill out a form and answer a few questions and we had a few meetings.
Speaker A:You asked me a whole bunch of questions.
Speaker A:But that was all relatively straightforward from my perspective and much easier than I've ever thought this whole process is going to take.
Speaker A:So I, I think it's worth mentioning because people might be afraid of filing a trademark registration because they're scared of the effort involved.
Speaker B:Yeah, well, first of all, I appreciate you saying that.
Speaker B:It was just pretty, pretty streamlined.
Speaker B:That really does mean a lot.
Speaker B:What we try to do is, yeah, we try to make the IP process a lot easier.
Speaker B:So if you want to be able to protect your brand, part of, like, my personal philosophy is if I'm going to be representing, representing you and trying to make sure that your brand is protected and we're the ones helping you with it, then I need to kind of sit in your shoes and kind of look out from, from your perspective, what are you trying to build?
Speaker B:What, what are we really trying to protect here and from there?
Speaker B:That's when, you know, the ideas start coming in and we kind of let that marinate and we'll come up with the right way to protect it.
Speaker B:And I think that that's the difference between working with an attorney versus working, you know, on your own is we have a little bit of experience, we've seen why registrations don't get issued, and then we can kind of counsel you on that ahead of time so you don't spend so much time and money wasted just waiting for.
Speaker B:Waiting for something that's just not going to come through.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And in the meantime, maybe things have shifted in your market and you have issues.
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker A:Awesome.
Speaker A:All right, let's move into a little bit of a different topic.
Speaker A:And that is trust building and IP protection.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So this podcast is a lot about building trust in B2B relationships.
Speaker A:And when I think about intellectual property, you know, I obviously counsel my clients to build intellectual property to signal that credibility and signal that authority they have.
Speaker A:How is it helping if I copyright my intellectual property to build more trust by.
Speaker A:Does it give it more authority?
Speaker A:Does it give it more credibility?
Speaker B:I would say it does.
Speaker B:One thing I've seen, you know, advising startups over, over the few years is the companies that have IP protection are the ones that get funded because investors like to see that their money isn't being thrown away into something that's easily copyable.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:It's something that can easily be copied.
Speaker B:So from that standpoint alone, it builds trust because, you know, it makes sure that investment dollars don't get wasted.
Speaker B:They're going to something that's backed by something.
Speaker B:And when you mentioned, you know, is it trust building, the main reason I would say yes is because it shows that you have faith in yourself and what you're creating, because you created something and you said, look, this is mine and it's real.
Speaker B:It's not just some ephemeral thing that you just created.
Speaker B:Maybe next day you'll create something else.
Speaker B:It's something that you want to last, and then it's something that you want to make sure that no one else can just take it from you.
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker A:That really makes a lot of sense.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:But there's also like a psychology element right at play with buyers that if something is branded or protected, as you just said, it just seems more legitimate.
Speaker A:It seems more real because that person has put in the work and has put in the effort.
Speaker A:And as you said, it's much more like that longevity it's going to be around.
Speaker A:That makes a lot of sense.
Speaker A:What are the risks?
Speaker A:Let's flip this around.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:Like, what is the risks of not protecting your IP we already talked about the risk of it might be copied or stolen.
Speaker A:Fine.
Speaker A:There is a risk.
Speaker A:One of the reasons I went and trademarked my name was actually because I wanted to not infringe on someone else's.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And by trademarking it, I carve out my little niche and I'm making sure I'm not actually actively, by accident, maybe even infringing on someone else.
Speaker A:So are there any other risks you can think of of not protecting my ip?
Speaker B:One risk is if you're, if you're building a company that, that has, you know, intellectual property assets that could have been protected but you chose not to protect it.
Speaker B:The risk is you're lowering the valuation of your company.
Speaker B:Because when people do evaluation of a company, they look, you know, to all the assets that it owns, and if it doesn't own the IP that it really should have owned, it doesn't get that extra little bit of funding.
Speaker B:So that, that is also a risk that, you know, if you don't protect your ip, you're.
Speaker B:You're literally leaving money on the table.
Speaker A:Yeah, but there's also, like this element of market distinction.
Speaker A:Yeah, right.
Speaker A:You're kind of losing.
Speaker A:You could have made yourself more special and distinct across your competitors by protecting your.
Speaker A:Your ip.
Speaker A:Okay, okay, let's say I have copyrighted an asset or I trademarked my name.
Speaker A:How do I now go about to publicly announce it or put it into the market?
Speaker A:Is there something that I need to do that I should be doing?
Speaker A:Or should I just put my TM or my R on it or my C on it and be done with it?
Speaker B:Yeah, I think what you're talking about is putting people on notice that it is protected.
Speaker B:Is that, is that right?
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, essentially.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Yeah, for that.
Speaker B:So if you have, you know, your trademark registered, use the R symbol.
Speaker B:Like, make sure that's, like, well known because it's not mandatory that you use it, but if you're using the R symbol and everyone knows it, then, you know, if and when they, they copy it then, or infringe on it, then you can say, look, you're doing this on purpose.
Speaker B:You're willfully infringing.
Speaker B:And sometimes that.
Speaker B:That can lead to triple the damages that you otherwise would have received.
Speaker B:So you always want to put people on notice by just using the symbols that are, you know, created for those rights.
Speaker B:So the R symbol for trademarks, you know, whether you choose to copyright, you know, register your copyright with the copyright office, you can always use the C with the, with the circle as well.
Speaker A:So really Use it consistently everywhere.
Speaker B:Use it consistently everywhere.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:But beyond that there's no.
Speaker B:What was that?
Speaker A:I'm saying note to self, not doing that yet because I always find it a bit weird to put the TM because we're still waiting for the, for the actual registration.
Speaker A:So note to self, have to keep doing that.
Speaker B:Yeah, the TM is essential because, you know, another thing is when you're using like you're trying to get your trademark registered, one, one thing that we have to do is, you know, submit a specimen of use to the trademark office.
Speaker B:One great way of showing the trademark office, the uspto, that you're actually using this name in commerce is to have that tm.
Speaker B:So when they see the tm, they're going to think, okay, you're using it exactly how you are requesting for on the registration, more likely to give that to you.
Speaker A:So flipping that around, is it then my job as well to ensure that everyone who's writing my name, my trademark name in an article or you know, somewhere else in a published whatever that they are tming it as well?
Speaker B:I would say no, because if, if they're, you know, if there are articles that are being written and they're using your name, you can always like maybe request that they use the, the R symbol.
Speaker B:But it's not, not something that that's typically done.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:It doesn't make a difference really.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Because if they're just talking about the, you know, the name itself in an article in a very descriptive way, they're not, you know, using that name in, in commerce.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:They're not using it to sell a goods or service or make an association.
Speaker B:They're, they're just like using the name just to talk about it.
Speaker A:Okay, Right.
Speaker B:If you think about it this way, like anytime, you know, you go to like a, you know, like a well known restaurant or something like that that has that trademark protection, you're not going to write, I went to this, this restaurant with R. You decided I just wanted restaurant.
Speaker B:So it's kind of like, like that.
Speaker A:Yeah, makes sense.
Speaker A:Okay, what are some common misconceptions that business owners have that you've encountered that we once and for all can put to bed here?
Speaker B:One thing is.
Speaker B:Well, with respect to trademarks, I would say people think that when they file their business entity as an llc, they think that name is protected.
Speaker B:That that's like the biggest misconception I've seen.
Speaker B:People are like, why do I need a trademark?
Speaker B:I already have an llc.
Speaker B:Well, the llc, you know, is the Business structure protects the business entity as its own unit, but it doesn't protect the name as a trademark will name.
Speaker B:That's something you still have to register with the trademark office to get.
Speaker A:Interesting.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Another misconception I would say, like in the startup space, is when you have multiple people creating IP for a company, not having the right IP assignment clauses in your operating agreements, in your founders agreements, et cetera is very problematic because sometimes, you know, founders have disputes, employees and founders have disputes, people leave the company and then there's all this, this cloud of ambiguity as to who owns what.
Speaker B:Did I create this work when I was, when I was at the company?
Speaker B:Did I create it in my spare time?
Speaker B:Did I create it before the company?
Speaker B:Technically, like what aspect of it did I create before?
Speaker B:What aspect did I create while I'm at the company?
Speaker B:If there's a clear IP assignment clause that says anything that you create and really define it belongs to the company, then if a founder leaves, if an employee leaves, there's really no issue about what they, you know, can or can't take.
Speaker B:So one, one misconception is not having those, not not knowing whether an employee who left or founder who left owns certain IP because they just didn't lock it down with the, with the, the proper IP assignment clause.
Speaker A:Yeah, I can see that getting very nasty very quickly.
Speaker A:Thanks.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:So if anyone is listening and they have something they're really proud of and they want to register or they want to go about actually trademarking a name, how, and they would love to come and talk to you, how would they go about to get in touch with you?
Speaker B:The easiest way is to go to my website.
Speaker B:If you go to kinhallaw.com you can, you know, you can click a.
Speaker B:There's several buttons all over the site where you can book a free consult.
Speaker B:You can pick a time that's convenient for you and then we'll have a call.
Speaker B:That's like the easiest way to get in touch.
Speaker B:Awesome.
Speaker A:And for anyone listening, I'm not getting paid for this, I swear.
Speaker A:But that consultation literally felt like you're just trying to help.
Speaker A:It was not.
Speaker A:I was a bit.
Speaker A:I mean, you came recommended for my brother in law so you know, we know each other from personal connections and I trusted you.
Speaker A:But a lot of times when you are hiring a lawyer, there could be that pressure or you feel like, you know, and that just that first conversation really felt.
Speaker A:Yeah, I'm just here to help.
Speaker A:Let me know.
Speaker A:No pressure.
Speaker B:Yeah, I appreciate you saying that, Hannah.
Speaker B:That's that's really my approach because one thing I've learned, operating as kind of my own firm versus like, you know, being in a company when you're working with, you know, when you're looking to hire someone to work with, that.
Speaker B:That person should also be looking to see if they're the right fit for you too.
Speaker B:Because if they can't really give you what you're looking for, it's not worth paying the money to.
Speaker B:To go down that road.
Speaker B:So for me, I really try to see if there's a fit on both sides.
Speaker B:If I can actually do my best and help you, then we can take you on as a client.
Speaker B:Otherwise, I have.
Speaker B:I might know someone else I could refer you to.
Speaker B:So that's our general approach.
Speaker A:Awesome.
Speaker A:Well, I thank you so much for sharing your.
Speaker A:Your insights, your wisdom.
Speaker A:Hope this helps.
Speaker A:I'm sure, actually it will help a lot of people protect your ip.
Speaker A:And yeah, just as you said before, make sure that hard work is yours for a long time and you can benefit from it in the fullest potential.
Speaker A:Really, truly appreciate it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Thank you for having me on hand.
Speaker B:Really enjoyed our conversation today.
